Confessions of a Former Laser Rep: The Tactics He Used on Med Spas

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:00:00] One med spa owner bought a facial machine for about $50,000. By the end of her five-year loan, she'd paid 92,000 for it. And when owners pay that much for equipment, it shows up in what patients pay for treatments. I'm Dr. Kate Dee, founder and medical director of Glow Medispa in Seattle, and this is Med Spa Confidential, where we expose the risks, the red flags, and the outright illegal practices happening inside med spas right now because you deserve to [00:00:30] know before you book. [00:00:31] My guest, Jason Peters, is founder of Aesthetic Negotiators. He sold lasers for 13 years. He knows the tricks because he used them. Booking a treatment? You'll hear why 15 US companies sell the exact same CO2 laser under different names, and you'll see why the provider selling you a treatment may have been sold a story first. [00:00:55] Own a med spa? You'll find out why, " We have only one left," is just a [00:01:00] pressure tactic. You'll learn about the hidden cut laser reps get from lenders and the contract line you should absolutely cross out before you sign. Stay until the end to hear about what happened when a rep gave me three doctors to call about my first device. [00:01:16] Owners should take this step before signing. Patients should hope their provider did [00:01:22] So Jason, thank you so much for talking with me today.

Jason Peters: [00:01:26] Absolutely. Thank you for having me

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:01:27] Your new business is called Aesthetic [00:01:30] Negotiators, okay? But that, what you're doing now is helping people navigate all the craziness that is the laser world and purchasing these devices and I've been down that road as a practitioner for a long time, as a physician. [00:01:46] So one of the things I wanna explain to our audience, okay, 'cause our audience is people in the industry, but also consumers, and what you have to say is really profoundly interesting for both sides. [00:01:59] I wanna make [00:02:00] that really clear. So for anybody who goes to a med spa or consumes any of this stuff, the laser reps and their tactics actually trickles directly down to consumers and patients, and not just, you know, this isn't just interesting to people who wanna buy a laser. I just need to make that really clear 'cause we're gonna hear some really crazy stories. [00:02:20] So, can you talk a little bit about what the laser rep tactics are and, I mean, basically why you left all that and decided [00:02:30] to help people na- navigate that?

Jason Peters: [00:02:32] It's a great question. I have a great answer. I've been, you know, I've been doing this for 13 years, and I've worked for some of the largest,aesthetic companies out there right now, and I've also owned my own distributorship. And over the 13 years, you know, the industry, it, it's changed. There's a lot more players in the game. [00:02:53] devices are being sourced from all over the world, and it's really hard to keep [00:03:00] track of, what's out there, what's good, what's FDA approved, what's cleared. And really when it comes down to aesthetic negotiators is how much should I pay, right? The prices, a lot of these prices on these devices are, especially if they're brand new and the technology hasn't, you know, is just releasing, the prices are g- are grabbed out of thin air, right? [00:03:20] They just throw some enormous number out there and they, and that's where they start. And what I've seen over the last 13 years, and I've experienced, and the reason why I [00:03:30] love being here and speaking to everyone listening to this podcast is I was the, what you would say, the bad guy. I was the, that sales rep in your office. [00:03:39] I was the one that was, you know, giving you these smoke and mirrors sal- sales tactics. I had all the leverage, and that's why I think it's great for me to be here today so now I can give some of that device insider information to the audience.

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:03:54] To paint this picture for people, it's not just what that med spa or that [00:04:00] practice paid for the device or what they're paying on an ongoing basis, but also how that directly affects patients, both in price and also in the quality of that service that, you know, that device is used for. [00:04:16] So, you know, 'cause it really has a profound effect. So, and we'll get into why in a minute, but what are the, what are the main tactics

Jason Peters: [00:04:24] Yeah, I'll start off with the leverage, and then we'll talk about what the, you know, what the provider can actually purchase the [00:04:30] device for and how that reflects to the consumer because they're buying it at a, at a lower cost. And, yes. So leverage, it's all about the leverage. And as long as the sales rep has the leverage and you are on their time zone, their timeframe, okay? [00:04:47] they hold it all. They have, they have all of the information, they have all of the pricing. They know these large margins at their sales training events. They know the highest they can sell it. They know the lowest they can sell it. They know how much [00:05:00] commissions they're gonna make at each tier, right? [00:05:03] So, you know, it is our job as a rep, right, working for the manufacturer to make the manufacturer or the distributor as much money as possible, and also we wanna put as much commission in our pocket. And that's how it works. So, you know, there's a... The main tactics, and there's a lot of them, but really it's trying to push the provider to purchase as fast as possible to create this [00:05:30] FOMO, fear of missing out. [00:05:32] And there's so many different tactics. I can name a few, and I'm sure anyone listening today has probably heard one of these before or a few. You know, it-- The most common one is we just had a, an aesthetic conference, and we had some floor show models that we had to put out for demo, right? And the- and these are for sale. [00:05:54] They were fired one time, or, you know, they were just touched, you know, just touched by hand, [00:06:00] and we can give you this nice discount on that. That's all false, all right? It's... Most of the providers that at least I've, I've worked with and I've sold, I've also used those same tactics. We're shipping them a brand new device in the crate. [00:06:15] They're not getting the used demo one. I've also-- We've used tactics and heard from other reps. There was a, a mass purchase from a large national organization and, you know, they bought 50 lasers and there were five [00:06:30] left over that they, that they, that they didn't take, and w- we can now sell these to you at this wholesale discounted price. [00:06:37] Again, all BS. The device... We had a device that was being delivered and the crate fell off the truck and the crate got dented. Nothing happened to the laser. The laser's fine. The crate got damaged. We can't sell it to... So we have to sell it kind of as an open box buy. We'll give you a discount. [00:06:54] On top of that, we'll say, "We've got three other practices already looking to buy this. We [00:07:00] only..." Then they'll come down and say, "We only have one left," right? And if you put down a $25,000 deposit today, we can lock it in." So these go on and on. So any of the, of the audience listening today, if you've heard anything similar to that, it's smoke and mirrors. [00:07:17] Okay? So, to answer your second question, it does... And why it's so important to negotiate this laser and your consumables and your warranty and the recertification fee, and there's so many other [00:07:30] things that you can negotiate, is it comes down to what you end up spending for that laser and how much money you can save, compared to the med spa or dermatologist or plastic down the street, because that price is gonna reflect what you have to charge to your patients to get that investment back and make the return.

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:07:50] So the biggest thing that I've seen on my end is, meaning, you know, on the med spa side is people being, you know, [00:08:00] convinced that a certain device is gonna make them all this money. So the rep brings you a spreadsheet that tells you how much money you're gonna make, the ROI spreadsheet, right? [00:08:09] And I laugh every time a rep ever brought me one of those, I just laughed in their face. I'm like, "Yeah, th- that's nice made-up fake numbers that," you know. But people look at that and they go, "Ooh, I'm gonna make all this money if I buy this device." Okay, so now they've spent a ton of money and they have a ton of debt, and they're making payments on it, and they [00:08:30] have to sell X number a month just to break even, much less, you know, make any money. [00:08:37] And so now they have this huge desire to sell it whether it works or not. So some rep convinced them that it works, and so they're convinced themselves that it works until they realize they have enough patients they do, and people are not happy, and, you know, it doesn't really do what the rep said it was gonna do. [00:08:59] But now [00:09:00] they have this pressure to sell something that doesn't work to people because they need to pay it off. And I think that's the biggest effect on patients is, like, you can't necessarily believe this person selling you the service because someone snowed them selling them laser to start with, and now they're snowing you in order to sell enough of these services to just pay off this device that they sh- probably shouldn't have bought.

Jason Peters: [00:09:28] Agreed. Yeah. [00:09:30] Wait, now let me ask you-- So let me ask you, what, since you've been, you know, an owner and you've been around, you've wrote a, a book on medical spas, "Medical Spa Mayhem," I'll plug you in there. What, why do providers purchase the $250,000 brand new device? What do you think the, [00:09:47] the instincts are

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:09:48] You, That's not true. [00:09:49] There's no reliable way to know if a med spa is following safety standards or cutting corners, until now. The Med Spa Board certifies clinics that prove they're doing things right, [00:10:00] verified products, licensed staff, and actual medical oversight. It's the difference between rolling the dice with your skin and knowing exactly who's holding the needle. [00:10:09] If you're looking for aesthetic treatments, go to medspaboard.com to find a certified spa near you. And if you already have a med spa you love and they're not certified yet, please send them our link. Med spa owners, getting certified does more than build patient trust. It should also save you a ton on your [00:10:30] malpractice insurance. [00:10:31] Do the right thing and go to medspaboard.com. Keep listening, keep asking questions, and stay safe out there. [00:10:38] I have purchased devices that are that, are that expensive. I can tell you, so, you know, I made some really good decisions, so I, I do know a lot of physics. So I know a lot of physics and physiology 'cause not only am I an MD, but I'm also a radiologist, and we're physics geeks, okay? [00:10:55] so I made some really good decisions because I picked devices that worked, right? And I [00:11:00] became a spa that was pretty much on the cutting edge for... You know, we've been on the cutting edge for a long time. So when a n- new device comes out, you have to decide whether you wanna be kind of at the beginning of that if you think it's really gonna be the next big thing, or if you're like, "Nah, this doesn't, this doesn't make a lot of physiologic sense. [00:11:19] I'm, I'm gonna wait on that," right? And there are a lot of people who are... Feel differently about whether they wanna be an early adopter or not. So, but when I [00:11:30] see something where not only does the physics and the physiology make sense, but I have friends who've used it who think that it really works, or they've been in on the trials, then I'm like, "Ooh, maybe I want this one." [00:11:43] And I don't know if I should name the device, but I did... I... So I have been on the cutting edge of a couple things where we did really well. They... It was a really good device. I... You know, worked out really well. And then I did buy a very expensive de- [00:12:00] device that did meet all of those characteristics that I said, but it just was priced too high. [00:12:05] The cost of... And that company mandates that you have a certain co- a certain price, and you can't go below that, or you can't advertise below that. And they just set it way too high. And so it's like it's a good device. It does what it does. It's... You know, but it really needs to be priced lower so people can afford it and do it, like, once a month as opposed to, you know, one series once, right? [00:12:28] and so, but I [00:12:30] think that what happens is a lot of people, there's another device that's, that I've been... I mean, I can just name it. You don't have to talk about it, but I've, I d- did another podcast, where we talked about all the noninvasive skin tightening devices that use heat, either RF or ultrasound, To heat the skin and generate collagen. [00:12:48] So those work a little. They work some, they work okay. They all are very similar as far as their results. They all claim to be better than the other one that, you know... But the, [00:13:00] the big one that's super hyped right now is XERF. It's X-E-R-F, right? And it's super mega hyped, right? And I personally don't think it's any better or worse than any of the outside cooling, heating ones. [00:13:11] and I just think it's super-duper over-hyped, right? And, but people jumped on that bandwagon, because everybody wants it right now. Kim Kardashian came out and said, "Oh, this is great," and you know, by the way, that for her to say anything, you know, they pay her a ton of money to say that, right? And, a lot of [00:13:30] people bought it,and because people are asking for it. [00:13:32] And I guess that might make sense. People are asking for it, maybe you wanna be able to provide that, even if it's eh, and not any better than anything else, even, you know, 15-year-old Thermage, which I think is probably 20 at this point. You know, it doesn't work any better than any of the other outside heating devices. [00:13:51] But because everyone's asking for that one and not the other ones, maybe you should buy that one. I just, you know, I don't, I don't think it

Jason Peters: [00:13:58] Yeah, I think it comes down to [00:14:00] science and then it comes down-- because I totally agree. I think, you know, all therapy, they have the new prime, Sofwave. They have the most, some of the most, you know, abundant clinical papers and research out there. But then you-- we talk about Surf, guess they have all the marketing, right? [00:14:15] What's, what's in everybody's eyes right now? What's in... You have Kim Kardashian, and she, you know, she's probably put her name on seven different aesthetic devices, right? Because they pay her. And she's also on, I think, Sofwave. I'm, I'm not for sure, but [00:14:30] yeah. So it really just comes down to... [00:14:33] I wrote a little piece about this, I think about a month ago. You know, laser physics has really, has not really changed over the many decades. It's the same wavelengths, it's the same, ultrasound RF technology. It just really hasn't changed, and what the manufacturers and distributors do are just put, they put a little bit more bells and whistles on the, on the equipment. [00:14:56] They relaunch an old piece of equipment, right? [00:15:00] Give it a brand new name, a new market. There's kind of recycling through these things. I think the only company that actually launched something fairly new in the laser space was, Aqualaro Medical with UltraClear,

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:15:11] Claire, yes, and I

Jason Peters: [00:15:13] With 29-

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:15:14] Like that one.

Jason Peters: [00:15:15] It's a good one. Uh, [00:15:17] so they, it's, you know, another ablative, you know, 2910 cold fiber laser, you know, that's added on now to, for a CO2 or erbium. [00:15:25] So you have another option and, you know, they have their own claims. But really what it, what it comes down to is [00:15:30] nothing's really changed. So, to your point, when I try to speak to providers when they sign up at Aesthetic Negotiators or we have our consult calls is, you know, do you really need that $250,000 device? [00:15:40] What are you looking at? Are you just wanting to do hair removal, IPL, some of just the common treatments are out there that really you don't need mass marketing? You know, the- your patients trust you for, you know, the services that you do, right? So do you know, there's a lot of, especially with hair removal and some of these other devices, IPL, I mean, there's [00:16:00] good used devices out there that are certified pre-owned that you can spend, an eighth or a tenth of what you would brand new, and going

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:16:08] You have to get it recertified if you wanna get any, mm, you know, parts or c- or any, if there's any consumable with that. And then that's expensive. Really expensive

Jason Peters: [00:16:20] So let's touch on recertification. So, o- one thing that p- that providers don't know, you know, they get excited, they negotiate the quote, [00:16:30] right? They get the price down to what they think was a good deal, which I'll tell you, usually it's not. [00:16:36] And there's always more. And then comes the terms and conditions underneath the quote, right? [00:16:41] And then they just kind of brief that over real quick. "Oh yeah, it's got a one-year warranty," and they sign an initial and they date it, okay? There's a lot of language in that terms and conditions that can still be negotiated, and one of them is that recertification fee. So

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:16:55] Really? Meaning if you, if you sell it now to [00:17:00] someone else, they can recertify for less?

Jason Peters: [00:17:03] Or nothing. So let me, Let's put you in the situation, okay? I just sold you a $200,000 device. Got the sale. You signed the paperwork, and then you went to the terms and conditions, and you actually read it. And you went through and you're like, "Whoa, if I ever close my business, sell it, or just wanna sell this device to someone else, you're gonna charge me a recertification fee." [00:17:29] [00:17:30] Sometimes it doesn't have the number on there, it's just the amount of what the manufacturer says, or if it does have amount. W- all you need to do as a provider is strike that or have a legal counsel, look over that and strike what you don't think, that you do not want on the contract. I can tell you, with almost 99% assurity, they are not going to turn that 200,000 deal down, dollar deal down that you just signed when you start negotiating the terms and conditions. [00:17:58] They're gonna work with you one way or [00:18:00] another. So that's a, that's a, that is a big problem in the industry ' cause you see people trying to sell their equipment all the time. [00:18:09] And

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:18:10] Do it

Jason Peters: [00:18:11] Yeah, and we know the corp-- the, you know, the culprits, you know, out there that charge the huge ones. I mean, I've seen 45, 55. [00:18:18] And then, so what happens to the provider, right? Now they have to discount their device that much, so the actual, the new, the, [00:18:30] the new buyer can get it, you know, for the reas- you know, for a good cost. Now, and then here's the other thing too that manufacturers do. Because if you sell a device, a used device, the manufacturer makes nothing, right? [00:18:43] So that's why they have to charge a recertification fee. They lost a sale. So that's why they put this big number out there, which is again, it's just absolutely ridiculous. But what will happen is the provider that you're trying to sell your equipment to, they're gonna start calling the manufacturer, [00:19:00] "Hey, I'm thinking about buying this used piece of equipment. [00:19:02] You know, how does it work with warranty?" they're not just not gonna deal directly with you, right? They're gonna make that phone call. Well, then what happens is the manufacturer distributor is like, "Well, hold on for a second. You know, why, do you really wanna buy used and have to pay the, you know, recertiface- recertification fee? [00:19:19] Why don't we get do a good deal for you on a new one," right? Or, "We have a certified pre-owned directly from the manufacturer." And I'll tell you what, there's so much [00:19:30] margin in these devices. They'll get it down close to what you were gonna sell it to her for brand new

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:19:35] Right. Oh my gosh. That's so... It's so... Okay, so what I would do then is I would take the entire contract that the rep gave me, and I would feed it to Claude or ChatGPT, I use Claude, but, and say, "Okay, find the recert fee and cross it out."

Jason Peters: [00:19:55] Yeah, cross it out. But it-- that's one thing, and obviously there's legal teams [00:20:00] out there too that will review these contracts for you. I know c- I mean, everybody's using AI. One thing I wanna touch on AI and, you know, not... I don't wanna go big into AI right now. It's a great tool. I use it, everybody does. [00:20:12] But AI does give you great information, and it gives you great negotiation tactics, and you can upload a contract, and it will just put it, you know, real nice and easy for you. I can tell you this though, providers that are only using AI and think they can negotiate their deal just by using [00:20:30] the tech and be like, "All right, I think I got it." [00:20:32] It goes so much further than that, than Chat or Claude, okay? Some of the information's not accurate. But why-- You know, people ask me this all the time. "Why would I sign up for Aesthetic Negotiators when I can just use AI?" There's a very important piece when you have an actually person, someone that can pick up the phone, make the phone, make the phone calls. [00:20:55] And in 13 years, God bless, I haven't really burned any bridges. I still [00:21:00] have very good contacts with all of the companies. A lot of the CEOs and VPs are on my phone. I text and call, right? Sometimes I just need to make a phone call and say, "Here's the situation. This is what we need." And we can go up and beyond of what the provider is working with AI and the sales rep, right? [00:21:20] There's so much more that can be done. So I just wanted to make that clear. Use AI all you want. I use it. Do the best you can in negotiation. You'll learn a lot. But [00:21:30] then when you get to that point, like I think I got to the bottom, right? The sales rep said he can't do anymore. Well, that's when the real negotiation starts,

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:21:38] Makes total sense. I mean, it's true of basically every interpersonal interaction, you know? I mean, it's pretty similar in medicine where, you know, it's so much faster, simpler for, you know, me to da- make a doc to doc call and get you in for this thing that's really important. Otherwise you're jumping through [00:22:00] every single hoop to try to get an appointment, and you can't get one for eight months, you know? [00:22:04] That kind of thing.

Jason Peters: [00:22:06] Yeah. I, it's great. So really what we, you know, using AI and then, and get, you know, doing your negotiations and what we do at Asset Negotiators is we accelerate that 10 times, right? Where when you're going back and forth with the rep and the phone calls and the texts and the unexpected drop-ins, and you guys are playing cat and mouse,

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:22:24] Oh, the unexpected drop-ins, that's my, one of my favorite things. You know what they do is they drop in and [00:22:30] they go to the front desk and they say, "Oh, hey, Dr. Dee's expecting me. We have a lunch, you know, a lunch meeting." And then my front desk, well, they've learned, right? But m- when there's a brand new person it's like, "Hey, do you have a meeting with so and so?" [00:22:44] I'm like, "No, they're, they're just lying to you." Right?

Jason Peters: [00:22:48] Yeah. Well, I don't underst- like, I don't get that. So then what happens? They just, why, that's... They just hope that the doctor comes out and be like, "Yo, did we have a meeting?" And then they try to catch you for 30 seconds?

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:22:58] Pretty much, [00:23:00] yeah.

Jason Peters: [00:23:00] I mean, that would just turn me off and [00:23:02] just be like, "Don't ever come, [00:23:03] come in here again."

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:23:05] It's a way to get kicked out of my spa, for sure. Okay, so I need to ask you about the, predatory lending because one of the first things ... So if you read my book, you saw that I ha- I had a favorite laser rep who very early on told me, you know, "Never take the equipment financing. [00:23:23] Always just get a traditional, commercial loan from a bank." So, and I did that, and I [00:23:30] always did that and, you know, my interest rates were very low. So tell me, like, what's the deal with that? Like, it's essentially like, you know, these predatory rent-to-own places, right?

Jason Peters: [00:23:41] Yeah. I mean, it's-- doing this podcast, the providers are gonna love me, the sales reps are gonna hate me. But you know what? It's, it's time to unleash all of this. I mean, New York taxicab didn't like Uber coming into New York and try to push them out, but guess what? It was a better service and it provided, right? [00:23:59] [00:24:00] so yeah, the predatory loans, I mean, this is, this is, this is a pain point. I actually for a qu- a quick example is I had a customer that purchased, a HydraFacial device. I'm not saying it was a HydraFacial. It was a HydraFacial-like device, okay? One of, one of the ones, competitor ones out there. [00:24:18] And she, you know, supposedly got a good deal. She told me the price, she didn't. But besides the point, they put her in a predatory loan. And, [00:24:27] you know, they s- what kind of interest [00:24:30] rate do you need to be at? They tell you. But the problem is, it's not just the interest rate. There's a lot of, hidden fees and points that are put in. [00:24:36] And again, when the provider is in a hurry or they got the good deal on the quote, they just, "Oh, okay, 13.9%. All right, they got it to where I need it to be. I'll sign it." They don't-- Who reads 15 pages? Especially now we have AI, it might help a little bit better, but... So what happens is, and why we push providers or when I [00:25:00] was a rep to some of these predatory lenders, is because not only do we get paid on the sale of dev- the device, the financing company pays us points on the total amount of the sale. [00:25:15] So these points, and the provider, the doctor has no idea. They just have no idea until, you know, it sort of-- It's just built into the loan, and they're, they're just making their monthly payments. To go back to my example. She got on this loan, and it w- I [00:25:30] think her device was $45,000, $50,000, and she ended up paying $92,000,

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:25:35] My God.

Jason Peters: [00:25:37] For a five-year loan. [00:25:39] Yes. Sorry. I had to back, I had to backtrack so people can hear like, "What? A HydraFacial device, 90 grand?" Yes. So what happens is

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:25:48] Crazy

Jason Peters: [00:25:49] We pu- we push the, the providers to these predatory loans 'cause we get points. These points can go up to four, five, six, up to eight points. Think about this. If I sell [00:26:00] you that laser that you bought for $200,000, one, I'm making a heck of a commission on that. [00:26:05] The manufacturer's making a great, you know, margin on it. If I, if I can get eight points on that, the most points I get, that's another $16,000 that I'm gonna put in my pocket. My manager's gonna take most of the chunk, right? And then it gets spread out, right? So now I got, you know, I got my mortgage paid for the month and he did too, and whatever, just from the points,

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:26:28]

Jason Peters: [00:26:28] That, you're paying us.

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:26:29] [00:26:30] And the thing to understand about these predatory loans is that you can't pay them off. There's a prepayment penalty, meaning you still owe all the interest for the whole part of the whole, course of the loan, even if you pay it off s- early. Which means you owe all that interest from the day you bought it. [00:26:51] and so that is a ton of money, right? And so that's another reason why people can't turn around and sell these things [00:27:00] because they o- they still owe. You know, if they took out a predatory loan to pay for the 200K device, you know, over the course of that loan, that's probably doubles their cost of the laser, right? [00:27:13] And so all of a sudden they're in debt to 400K, and even if they sold it tomorrow, they still have to pay the 400K even if they sell it tomorrow. Like, they can't afford to. So

Jason Peters: [00:27:24] And sell it tomorrow, this is one of the most deppreciating assets are lasers, right? Once [00:27:30] you buy it, you sell it tomorrow, it's worth half,

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:27:32] It's worth nothing. Yeah. But you owe twice. So it's... And so in a traditional loan, you would never have to pay that. You pay it off early, yay, you saved all the interest. It's like paying a mortgage.

Jason Peters: [00:27:44] There are good lenders out there. You have to do your due diligence. I always use straight, you know, by the book, lenders. A lot of them use some of the main banks out there, but there are a couple predatory. I'm not gonna name any names. If you-- if someone's listening and they're looking to [00:28:00] buy a device, they put some... [00:28:02] or refer to financing company over there, please give me a call. I can probably tell you good or bad. But just be very cur- careful. If you can go to your bank and finance it yourself, please 100% do that. An SBA loan, go for it. But, the-- usually the predatory loans are the desperate, get it done quick. [00:28:21] We can get this done in 24 hours, have your device in a week, and, you know, the doctor's like, "Great." And they just don't really read into it

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:28:28] Well, the other [00:28:30] thing we could talk about is how they will sell anyone a laser even if they can't legally own it or use it. Have you... I mean, did you encounter that too? Because, like, one of the reasons you might not be able to get a loan to buy a laser is 'cause no one will lend you money because you're not really legally allowed to do- use it in that state, whatever. [00:28:54] And but [00:28:54] pe- they will sell it to you anyway. And that, I've seen that also where, [00:29:00] you know, now you have an esthetician who owns a laser and they didn't real- like, the, the rep said, "Oh, you know, I can train your front desk person to use this laser." Well, it doesn't matter if you could train somebody. [00:29:11] Is that legal? No. In, you know.

Jason Peters: [00:29:14] I mean, th- it's, every state has different regulations obviously. You know, typically when we sell a device, we have to have a medical director underneath the, our, overseeing the practice. But I think really the, the [00:29:30] problematic issue is there's [00:29:30] some states

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:29:31] Don't if you're selling cheap Chinese knockoffs

Jason Peters: [00:29:34] Yeah, you, yeah, the, some of those distributors, they're probably not following by the book. The big guys, you know, they have to 'cause there's just so much, you know, legalities that can come down to them. So it's usually they have to have a medical director. I- but I think on top of that is, you know, some of these states, you know, like an aesthetician-- in some states, aestheticians can't ablate, right? [00:29:55] so, you know, maybe some of this information wasn't [00:30:00] transparent with the provider, and they buy a CO2 laser, and they're like, "Well, hold on. Wait a second. I only have an aesthetician. I don't have a, you know, a PA or NP or..." They're like, "Well, oh, "Well, [00:30:11] So, but yeah, I kinda see your point. Yeah, it's, Th- they'll sell whatever they can sell to anybody if they can make it work, and

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:30:18] Yeah. Yeah. [00:30:20] Well, tell me about, US distributors who are licensing these Chinese devices. Tell me about that

Jason Peters: [00:30:28] Right. You know, the-- [00:30:30] again, when I started 13 years ago, it-- there was a lot of pie for everyone to eat, right? And there's maybe five or six big players, and that's where everybody bought their devices and everybody won and, you know, it was a good time then. At the present, there are so many distributors that are coming into the States, 1099s to starting up their own companies. [00:30:55] There's so little of the pie left, right? There's just these little tiny [00:31:00] slices 'cause there's so many new companies coming in. And what I've been seeing is,more than ever are US distributors m- bringing in Chinese devices, okay? And look, Chinese, they make great products. You know, I'm not knocking off on knocking Chinese devices. [00:31:18] there are some good devices out there. I'm sure there's some that aren't that

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:31:21] Are, they actually FDA approved or cleared?

Jason Peters: [00:31:25] Some of them have a clearance. I mean, th-they-- that's kind of a due diligence that we [00:31:30] do. But you want to look into that and think, again, thank God for AI. It-it-- sometimes it's hard with ChatGPT and Claude and whatever Gemini that you're using, 'cause sometimes they can't even find it. Because what happens is the US distributors are changing the names and they're licensing and rebranding and, you know, it's harder to find the information on that. [00:31:50] some of it's, it is, some of it's not. But what I'm seeing is a mass amount of distributors bringing in these Chinese devices, selling them for a, [00:32:00] a big multiplier. The-- one of the big issues is the service, the support, the marketing. There really isn't any, right? I did have just a current customer looking at some, devices they didn't know it was from China, and, something went wrong with one of them, and it took them six to eight weeks to even get a part, right? [00:32:21] There is no service. So what are, what exactly are you saving, right? Is, i-is it really worth it?

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:32:26] The biggest problem is, using, I [00:32:30] think, uh, non-FDA approved or cleared devices. I- nobody should be using those. In my opinion, it's super dangerous, and you'll lose your license. If anything goes wrong with those, with those patients, you will lose your license. And whether you're an aesthetician or a nurse or a physician, [00:32:50] it's not okay to use knockoff devices that are not FDA approved in this country. It's not standard of care, and if you harm [00:33:00] anybody, that's it. You are, you're on your own. So you're gonna lose your malpractice in- case. You're gonna lose your license. You're... I mean, it's, it just nobody should be doing that. [00:33:10] So just because you can order this device, like you just don't know the safety profile. So I interviewed one nurse practitioner who, an aesthetician bought one of these cheap knockoffs, which actually is no lo- after this happened, it's no longer available. But,

Jason Peters: [00:33:26] That's another big problem.

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:33:27] Aesthetician didn't have enough knowledge to know [00:33:30] that it was not legal or not a good device. [00:33:33] thought it was FDA approved. It wasn't. Said, "Oh, we got this new device in our med spa. You should come see it." And this poor woman's, like, has terrible scars all over her face from this awful R- you know, fake, essentially knockoff RF microneedling device that should never have been in this country in the first place. [00:33:54] But, you know, because anyone can buy anything off the internet at any time, and they can go [00:34:00] practice medicine illegally without a license, it's a felony, like in every state, but people are busy doing that. So people are buying these devices that are really not safe. And so i- in my opinion, they should just not be, not... [00:34:13] Nobody should do that.

Jason Peters: [00:34:14] [00:34:14] I think what I was gonna, what I was gonna bring up is the, the big point here is transparency, and that's what's not being, transferred over to the provider. It's not being related, right? They're not telling them where these [00:34:30] devices are being sourced. They act like it's their own. [00:34:33] They don't really tell them where it's manufactured. They don't wanna tell them. Once you tell a provider, "Oh, by the way, these are coming from China," you lost the sale, right? So all of this is hidden from the provider until after the fact

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:34:46] Well, so there are people who are in the States, saying that they're, you know, a laser company, but they're buying, like a cheap device off Alibaba for $5,000 and reselling it [00:35:00] in America for 30,000 and pretending that's a great bargain. I

Jason Peters: [00:35:05] Yeah.

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:35:05] That what's happening?

Jason Peters: [00:35:06] I see it all the time. I've-- Yes. I just, I just had an experience with a customer that happened, with that. So y- you c- they're, they're so good because... Or for instance, there is a CO2 laser on the market today. I see it all over social media. There are 15 different US distributors selling that same CO2 laser under a different name.

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:35:29] [00:35:30] Mm. Exact same laser

Jason Peters: [00:35:31] Same, exact same laser. I-- There was a, there was a doctor that was actually doing a live feed on a CO2 laser, and it was that laser. And he was talking about it was the best laser ever, one of a kind, and I had to chime in. I'm like, "You know, here, there's 10 other distributors that sell that exact same laser under a different name." [00:35:51] And I think I just got a thumbs up. But, you know, called him out. But a- again, it's, look, the, maybe the laser is [00:36:00] good. And I don't know all the credentials it has, but again, I think it really just comes down to transparency. If you're gonna spend 35,000 or buy three of them and spend 105, 110,000, you need transparency of where the device is coming from, all the clearances, where it's, you know, how is the service, the warranty, how does that all work? [00:36:19] At least you know, "Okay, I'm spending X amount for a Chinese device from this US distributor in full transparency." Okay. Right? [00:36:30]

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:36:30] So at least you know.

Jason Peters: [00:36:31] At least you know

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:36:32] But when you're advertising it, you can't pretend to not know. I mean, that's right? So that doctor either didn't know or was pretending that, you know, didn't know. Let's just give him the benefit of [00:36:44] the doubt. He did not know, right? But if you have full transparency, then you can't go on social media and say, "I got the latest and greatest and da, da, and look what it's doing," because you know you're lying. [00:36:57] So I mean, you know, [00:37:00] I don't know.

Jason Peters: [00:37:00] And any-- it's, to that point, any provider that purchases a device and spends X amount or makes the investment, it's always the latest and greatest. It's always the best device. You hardly see any provider start knocking a device they just made an investment on, [00:37:18] right? So

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:37:19] I mean, you have to believe in it in order to sell it. That's... I think that's the mentality that we're sort of, we're up against with the, [00:37:30] the over-hyped devices, okay? Because, you know, you've bought it. You drank the Kool-Aid, you bought it, you love... You know, you're like, "I love this device. [00:37:40] Look what it did to my skin," blah, blah. And so you are, like, the big mouthpiece now for this thing. You have to believe it does what you think it does, otherwise, like, how can you sell it, right? I mean, I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there who are perfectly capable of lying, and it's not hard for them. [00:37:57] For me, I can't do it.

Jason Peters: [00:37:59] Yeah. [00:38:00] You're, you have, you have ethics, right? You, so

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:38:02] Impediment [00:38:03] about lying. Like, I just can't do it. And, you know, I could say, "Well, I bought this device and I thought I..." I mean, my one expensive device that I thought would be, like, more gangbusters than it was. Not that I don't like it, I actually do like it, but I want to, I want it to be priced more like a HydraFacial rather than like a high-end laser, you know?

Jason Peters: [00:38:24]

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:38:24] Yeah. But they're not, right? I think, I do think, just to, I mean, not to [00:38:30] harp on Zerf, but the funny thing I think about it is that there are a lot of Zerf naysayers out there, but they're on opposite ends of the spectrum. So there's people like me who think, "Yeah, it doesn't do anything more than any other outside heating thing." [00:38:44] So any time you heat the skin to warm enough, you can stimulate your fibroblasts to make collagen, and that's great. That's great. Any time you do that, you're gonna have some swelling and edema when you're done, and you're gonna actually look smoother and a little tighter [00:39:00] when you're done with the treatment. [00:39:01] That's edema. That's temporary. It's just 'cause you have some swelling. So the people who are touting this thing as, like, having immediate results, it's like e- every device that does this does the exact same thing, and there, there is no immediate results. But then there's a whole other swath of people on the other end who, because the makers of Zerf claim that they've got a deeper frequency that hits your SMAS and causes, you know, a de- more damage, more deep. [00:39:29] There's [00:39:30] all these people who are like, "It's causes too much damage. It's hitting your SMAS. It's could kill your fat. It's really dangerous. Until they have more studies, I would never use that device. It's so..." And it's really funny because it's like, well, which one is it? Is it, "Eh, doesn't do much," or is it really, "Ooh, it's way too destructive"? [00:39:47] I mean, I personally don't think it does, There's plastic surgeons online saying, you know, "You don't wanna mess up your SMAS," and, "Don't use this device." I'm like, they literally have not tested in humans,

Jason Peters: [00:39:57] Yeah. I think it was a pig, right?

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:39:59] Pigs, [00:40:00] yes,

Jason Peters: [00:40:00] Yeah. [00:40:01] So that's the first question you ask, right? Give me, give me the studies, [00:40:04] right? What-- Show me the studies. So if they give you one study that's got a pig on it, like maybe you should think twice.

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:40:10] Right. Well, it's funny because I did this whole podcast about this, and there's all these people who said, "There are studies. There are these Korean studies." And every single commenter who, said that had Zerf in the name. So they work for Cynosure, and they're, they're, they're [00:40:30] commenting on behalf of the company. [00:40:31] It just is really funny, right? And I just... The thing is, I don't actually think Zerf is any better or worse than any of the other ones. There's... I used to have Exilis Ultra, it was a long time ago, that used RF and ultrasound. There's Thermage, there's Ultherapy, there's Everest, there's a million different RF ones. [00:40:50] I mean, there's Thermi. There... I mean... And the thing is that they all do the same thing. They all heat from the outside in,

Jason Peters: [00:40:56] And there's only so much you can do with that. And [00:41:00] it's okay. Like, there's nothing wrong with that. And for people who don't wanna have any downtime, any of those devices, okay, you know, use one of those.I think we're always every couple years like, when is the-- when is that one device? That one is that breakthrough, right? Just

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:41:15] And well, they keep, they keep ta- they keep rebranding something similar and saying it's the latest and greatest. And it's, technology-wise, it's just very similar to all the other ones.

Jason Peters: [00:41:26] I think that's such a good point, Dr. D, is [00:41:30] that we have to just drive that into people's heads and their minds that this tech- the technology really has not changed. It is the same stuff. It's a lot of just... It's marketing. It- Aesthetic companies are marketing companies. BTL, again, they have great devices, but they are one hell of a marketing company. [00:41:49] InMode, at one time, was one hell of a marketing company, and that's how they're selling, and they're worth hundreds of millions of dollars because how they market. But the technology [00:42:00] is really... You, you know, every- What's the best RF microneedling device? I get that on groups all the time. Geez, they're all, they're all the same for the [00:42:07] most

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:42:08] But I'm gonna, I'm gonna go on record by saying I don't think they're all the same, because the accuracy of the placement of the n- depth is variable. The needles are a little bit variable, and actually the way the RF ground, where, the way it grounds is variable as well. So, like, if you have a 49-needle [00:42:30] tip, the different manufacturers will have a different pattern of how much RF went through each needle, so it's not uniform. [00:42:37] So some of them, they're very uniform. Some of them it looks more like a square with smaller, lighter squares in the middle. It's... And so that's variable, the accuracy is variable, and then, you know, their safety measures are variable. So they all try to do exactly the same thing, and there are several of them that I think are very good, and a few that I think are really bad, and there's a few in between. [00:42:59] But, they're [00:43:00] all essentially trying to do the same thing, and I would, I would argue that the number one thing for RF microneedling is who's doing it. Because you can have someone who will destroy your face if the wrong person's doing it.

Jason Peters: [00:43:13] Yeah. I think when I was re-- And you're right, you make some [00:43:16] good points. [00:43:16] But no, but I, what I was referring to, almost -- when you're looking at spec to spec, right? So one megahertz, two megahertz, needle size, depth, they're very similar. I will give a shout-out to at least, [00:43:30] 'cause I know this device well, is I-I d- the Vivace Ultra, the new Ultra device, the new one, okay? [00:43:38] And the only reason why I'm saying this is because of what happened in the PR with Morpheus and InMode, and all the scars and fat atrophy, and everything else that happened, because the, it's the depth, right? Where are you going, right? It's who's doing the treatment. If they're, they're just like shooting blind with their eyes closed, they don't know. [00:43:57] Yes, you can cause all that damage. The reason why [00:44:00] I like Ultra is because they did put the ultrasound guidance on the device where you actually can scan the treatment area first, and it's telling you the patient's exact epidermis and dermis, so you know exactly where you need to go for that sp-specific part of the body. [00:44:17] That, I think that's [00:44:18] a [00:44:18] great

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:44:18] To have, you have to have a provider who knows where the dermis is, and knows exactly how deep that range is. Even if you have an ultrasound telling you, like, if you have a provider who [00:44:30] have, like, no clue what that means, they're gonna still get it wrong, or they're gonna pull up when there's still a pulse going, and they're gonna get the epidermis, or they're gonna set it

Jason Peters: [00:44:38] The training has to be [00:44:39] concrete from the manufacturer,

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:44:41] Really good. So there are a number. I mean, you know, we have Genius in my place. There's a few that are really good. There's one now that does three depths in one pass instead of having to do three passes. That's kind of nice. But, like, again, they're all, you know... But I once, I watched a [00:45:00] very famous dermatologist, who will remain nameless, doing Morpheus on a public stage, and they filmed it, and they put it on the social media, and you could see the needles not even entering the skin. [00:45:13] So you could see the hand piece bouncing out of the patient, and [00:45:19] I mean, it was so bad, and he kept going and going and going. Like, he didn't even notice that he was destroying this person's skin, and the needles weren't even entering the dermis at all. So

Jason Peters: [00:45:29] It was probably his first [00:45:30] time using it.

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:45:30] I do not think so. It was a very famous person

Jason Peters: [00:45:34] Right. Well, yeah, you never know though.

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:45:36] So I think the, as far as, you know, the over-hyped thing, I do think branding matters a little bit. Like, let's go back to your hi- friend who bought a, not a HydraFacial, right? So people do call and ask for HydraFacial. It's a... They've done a really good job of marketing that, right? [00:45:55] And so there's, there's two different people who answer that phone call. There's [00:46:00] one person who has HydraFacial, says, "Oh yeah, sure. We love it." You know, sure. Book that person. There's another person who bought a different brand who says, "Sure, we have HydraFacial," and books that person for DiamondGlow or for DermaSweep or whatever, one of the other ones. [00:46:15] And they're lying. And the person asked for not that. The person asked for a different brand and, but you know, "Oh, it's all the same." Like, well, okay. It's like I had a practitioner tell me once that was doing, [00:46:30] Fraxel, but she really had a completely different laser, but she called it Fraxel because people asked for Fraxel back then, right? [00:46:37] Nobody asks for Fraxel anymore, but at least I think nobody does. But, that sort of thing like, "Oh yeah, we have Botox," when they don't have any Botox. They're using Xeomin or a different neuro- toxin. So, you know, it's like, is that, is that okay? So we spend a lot of time educating our patients about, like, what we have, why we have that one, why we don't [00:47:00] have the other one. [00:47:01] I mean, yeah, we do have a HydraFacial actually. And there's reasons why I bought that, not just because everybody calls and asks for HydraFacial, but that's pretty much why, right? Like, because,that's what people want. And I don't think I could sell somebody something that wasn't that and pretend that it was. [00:47:17] Like, that's not what we do, so.

Jason Peters: [00:47:19] I see that in the marketplace, and I do agree. Branding does go s- you know, so far when it comes to consu- what's, what's, what's out there? What are people asking for? And people so- you [00:47:30] know, the providers sometimes pay that premium price so they can have it in their office, so when someone says, "Do you have this?" [00:47:35] They're like, "Yes, I do."

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:47:36] Yeah.

Jason Peters: [00:47:36] I totally agree

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:47:38] Yeah. So let me ask you, so if someone were asking you, like, "What's the one device I should buy and why?" What would be your answer?

Jason Peters: [00:47:49] And I think we may have talked about this before, so we're probably gonna have different answers. [00:47:53] But

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:47:53] That's okay 'cause

Jason Peters: [00:47:55] Now, only if your state allows it and everybody [00:48:00] can treat and the training is sup- you know, spectacular, they're well-trained. But y- there's so much technology on the market. But when it comes down to resurfacing, okay? [00:48:12] Resurfacing the skin, there's, you know, there's a lot of non-abla- I've walked into doctor's offices, they have five different resurfacing devi- you know, devices, some non-ablative, some ablative, but they have five. I personally, in my opinion, I [00:48:30] think the advancements in CO2 technology, you know, and there's n- there are hybrid CO2s now that, y- you know, have non-ablative wavelength in there, like a 1570 or 1490 with the s- with these, 10,600 CO2. [00:48:44] erbium is now coming out with kind of a hybrid edition as well, which, you know, the CO2 has the CoolPeel erbium now. There's an erbium out there that kinda does something like the CoolPeel, where you can really treat from A to Z, right? I think the biggest,you know, the, [00:49:00] the issue that, providers had at least back in the day with CO2 lasers is, you know, these... [00:49:04] They saw these pictures of full ablation and, you know, just red meat, leather face, you know, for weeks. So there's no way I'm gonna buy that. And, but the technology has advanced, and so there's... And there shouldn't be, on most of the brand of CO2 lasers, there's no consumables, right? So that's another big thing. [00:49:25] You can fire that thing all day long. These CO2 lasers, they're either glass [00:49:30] tubes or RF excited. They last 10, 15 years. No consumables. They just fire up. And you can really now treat, if someone says, "I just want a little, you know, sun damage, some pigmentation clearance, a little refresher," you can do something like the CoolPeel or a lighter CO2 treatment. [00:49:48] There's another CO2 out there right now that actually does ablative on the t- on the CO2 wavelength. It has a non-ablative,button on there. But you can really treat from, you can treat from A to Z [00:50:00] with a CO2 with no consumables, give the patient exactly the downtime that they're looking for and the result they want. [00:50:07] And a lot of the providers that I have talked to, and I ask, "What's your number one device that you made the most money on and people love?" And it's always a [00:50:17] CO2 [00:50:18] laser. There it is. That's

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:50:19] Yeah.

Jason Peters: [00:50:20] I don't know. You go ahead.

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:50:21] I, you know, and I think that's fair. I do not have a CO2 in my practice, and I won't buy one, and I don't think that most med spas [00:50:30] should have them because I think it needs to be in the hands of an expert physician who can really judge who should get a CO2. 'Cause for the most part, you cannot do skin of color, you cannot do Asian patients. [00:50:45] it's too dangerous. And I personally wanna have a laser that I could do everyone who walks in my door. So I guess if you, if you are in a neighborhood where your patient population is skewed very, very heavily Caucasian, [00:51:00] then okay. But even someone of my skin tone might really struggle with getting a full ablative. [00:51:07] and I just feel that people who do ablative lasers need to be able to treat the complications, and so many med spas don't really have someone who's really able to do that. So I think it really needs to be in the right person's hands. But I feel that way about R- RF microneedling as well, and that would be the one device I think people should do if they have the skill for it is that, [00:51:30] mostly because if the right person's doing it, you don't have those same risks of damaging your epidermis, or getting the hyperpigmentation, or getting the scarring, or whatever. [00:51:40] and you can do RF microneedling on any skin type. So I feel like that, you know, for me, that feels a lot safer in most people's hands. But, you know, again, like I'm so focused on what could go wrong, right? And back when I was starting my practice, I talked to someone who [00:52:00] taught a laser course, and this person taught all different lasers, like a laser expert. [00:52:05] And I was like, "Well, what's your complication rate with the fractional CO2?" And they're like, "Oh, it's like 1% or 2%." And I'm like... They're like, "Definitely less than 2%." And I'm like, "Well, that's too many people." That's like one or two in 100 patients who walk in my... That's bad. Like, that's too high a number. I can't cope with that, right? And that's in the hands of an expert. Um, so I do not wanna harm anyone. And this is like we're [00:52:30] taking people who are, you know, beautiful people, and we just want them to feel a little better in their skin, a little more beautiful, a little more something, right? [00:52:38] Get rid of some sunspots, whatever. We absolutely do not wanna scar anyone. We absolutely don't wanna leave anyone with any kind of permanent harm of any kind, right? And I'm, so I'm not saying CO2's terrible. It's not. It's a great device as long as it's done properly.

Jason Peters: [00:52:52] What I can say, Dr. Dee, is interesting enough, [00:52:56] the CO2 lasers... Now, when you're talking about full ablation, I [00:53:00] agree. Full ablation. Fractionated ablation, there are-- The most of the CO2 lasers out there, believe it or not, and you can fact-check me, but they're FDA-cleared one through six. So a lot of the studies out [00:53:11] there

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:53:12] But that's... You would never, in practice, you would never touch anyone four to six with a CO2. You should not. And anybody listening to this, don't do that. And it's really interesting. So you mentioned a laser earlier, the Aclara. They... So that's a, so that is, a CO2 [00:53:30] that, let's just say, like, if you are talking about a fractional laser and you're, you create a column of damage with that laser, the Aclara has this, it's a column of damage that's much tinier. [00:53:42] So its footprint, each little dot of damage in the skin is much, much tinier. So actually the, the damage is less and the recovery time is better. It's much safer in general. But even that, like that they told me, the l- the reps were like, "Oh, that's cleared to, you know, one through six." [00:54:00] And when I talked to the dermatologist when I demoed it, she was like, "Absolutely not. [00:54:04] I would never touch anyone four or greater." Like, you would not do that,

Jason Peters: [00:54:08]

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:54:08] It's just not safe.

Jason Peters: [00:54:09] That makes sense too. It's like if the [00:54:11] provider... It's a-- Yeah. The company will say, the manufacturer will say it's FDA cleared one through 60. They will have clinical, they will have white papers of African American s- patients being treated and Asian. Then I see [00:54:25] your point on the provider, like, do I even want to even [00:54:28] go

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:54:28] Not do that. Like, a, [00:54:30] a person who understands the physiology of the skin and has treated a ton of patients with all different, you know, skin types, you just wouldn't do it. I mean, I can tell you, I mean, I have... Seatt- I'm in Seattle, we have a giant Asian population, and there are people with very, very light, light skin who are Asian who, have so many more complications with those kinds of ablative lasers, I can't even tell you. [00:54:54] You would not ever wanna do it. And,

Jason Peters: [00:54:56] We-- This is gonna be a whole other podcast for us. We're gonna take a [00:54:59] [00:55:00] whole CO2 versus erbium [00:55:01] versus RF

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:55:03] I know, So we actually use a non-ablative laser for our resurfacing. I'd rather do... For me personally, I'd rather do three of them and have minimal downtime than to do one CO2 and, you know, have that recovery. [00:55:16] But, you know

Jason Peters: [00:55:16] Why I think Pico is, you know, is really nice 'cause, you know, it's not u- it's using that acoustic, damage, not thermal. And, I like the Pico for a lot of different reasons, and I think they're using a lot of it for melasma too. But, anyway, next topic. What do [00:55:30] we got here?

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:55:30] We've covered so much.we have a lot of people in the industry listening to this, and everybody's always about to buy something, right? [00:55:39] So check out Jason's website, so Aesthetic Negotiators, right? [00:55:45] but what would be, like, the top two things that you would recommend people do even before they call you when they're thinking about getting a new device? What should they be considering?

Jason Peters: [00:55:58] Sure. [00:56:00] So, if you're looking at a device three months, six months, 12 months, it's, it's great to start your research now, right? And a- again, thank God for AI. You can get a lot done, right? I think providers always call their peers. "What do you have?" Right? "What works? What doesn't?" I think that's always great. [00:56:19] But I will say is, you know, to get, to get in touch with Aesthetic Negotiators myself early on. Have a... I always do a 15-minute [00:56:30] complimentary phone call. "What are you looking at?" you know, "What's your budget? Have you talked to any reps? Have they gave you any quotes?" the, you know, if they, if they mention a, one specific laser, let's say a Zerf, right? [00:56:42] "Have you looked at all the competitor technologies? Any of you compared the specs? And let's talk about the studies." I, I just... An open conversation. And I think that's probably one of the most important to be able to have a device insider that's been there for 13 years to just, to chat with. I think we use a good analogy, and we talked about [00:57:00] this before, on the phone, is, you know, buying that car, right? [00:57:04] Going into the car dealership, you know, it's just, it's dreaded, right? You never wanna do that, sit at that table. And again, the c- the car dealership has all the leverage. Now, who would you rather have on your side of the table? A colleague, y- your mother, your brother, whatever, family member? Or would you rather have another car salesman and maybe even a finance manager sitting on your side of the [00:57:30] table? I can [00:57:31] guarantee you that conversation and that negotiation will be completely different than you by yourself or having one of your friends with you there just for support. And [00:57:42] I really, a- and so I think that's, you know, it's really important to, you know, again, do all your research, get all the information that you can, but also bring somebody like myself in a- a- and early. [00:57:54] I can tell you, I wanna tell you about the program too, and I make this very easy [00:58:00] for the providers, okay? We have two programs out there the one program, it's, it's $199 a month. And you know some of the savings that we can save, you know, providers. 199 a month is insignificant. And what we do is we walk you through that entire deal when you're talking to the rep or you're looking through. [00:58:20] We'll walk you through it from A to Z, and we'll, we'll walk you through everything that you need to do and tell you what's good, what's bad, what you can negotiate. It's, it's worth every penny. [00:58:30] We have one more tier at 299 a month, and we basically, we take over. We'll make the calls to the manufacturers. [00:58:35] We'll be the contact. You're like, "You know what, Jason? I don't want anything to do with this. I don't want the rep walking into my office saying we have flooded scheduled." you just tackle it all, and it's, so it's a, it's a little bit more. And those are our two [00:58:48] programs, and it's, it's [00:58:50] not...

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:58:50] A year contract?

Jason Peters: [00:58:52] It's a year contract, but also what we do, we have teamed up with an, exosome company, if you like exosomes or looking into it. [00:58:59] we teamed, [00:59:00] we teamed up with Resilie, so we're able to give you some product there. [00:59:03] And also

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:59:04] Don't get me started on exomes. I just filmed a podcast yesterday

Jason Peters: [00:59:08] If you like exosomes, if you bring it in, we have some for you. If you don't, you don't have to take them. The other, company we partnered with is Jubasonic, and what's nice about Jubasonic is a little pen device that actually penetrates the serum, PRP, whatever, P- PDRN, whatever product you wanna infuse into the epidermis, dermis, it [00:59:30] does it with no pain. [00:59:31] So we have a couple products like that we

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:59:33] Got it

Jason Peters: [00:59:33] Know... So it really... That pays for the membership itself

Dr. Kate Dee: [00:59:36] So, and my advice would be to pay attention first to what your patients need. Not necessarily what they're asking for, but as you do consults over the n- next few months, pay attention to what you wanna recommend for them, what are you missing in your service, you know, selection that is really gonna help your patients, [01:00:00] and think about getting that device. [01:00:02] Because just because everybody's talking about a certain device doesn't mean people walking in your door are gonna be served by that. So I'd be like, that would be my number one thing is as you're selecting what you wanna get, figure out what it is actually you wanna treat your patients with. And then the other big thing is once you do narrow it down, ask to speak to three doctors or whatever it is, if you're a nurse practitioner, whoever you feel comfortable [01:00:30] talking to, who actually use it already, and get their take on it. [01:00:35] 'Cause w- before you buy it. And then call Jason, and he's gonna negotiate it for you. But I think that, like, was the most telling research I've ever done in my life, 'cause I did that in the very first device I was looking at, and the three people who the rep referred me to all told me not to buy the device. [01:00:53] So I'm like,

Jason Peters: [01:00:56] The rep referred you to the doctor that told you not to? Oh my God, they [01:00:59] [01:01:00] didn't-- They need to update their list

Dr. Kate Dee: [01:01:01] Me three people who are already using this that I can talk to, and those were the three people that I talked to, and all three of them were like, "Oh God, I would never buy this device." You know, "They gave me this one for free, and here's why I wouldn't buy it." [01:01:14] So it's like, but when you've talked to somebody who loves it and they're like, "Oh my God, I'm so glad I got this. We- we're getting great results. We've had it for two years," blah, then you know that's real, and so that means a lot. And n- and, I'm sure Jason will not be upset when I say this, [01:01:30] but do not believe anything a rep ever tells you. [01:01:33] Never.

Jason Peters: [01:01:33] I agree. Don't do

Dr. Kate Dee: [01:01:35] Of it. [01:01:35] Not a single thing. Not the price, not the terms, not what the thing can do, not what they can train you to do. Just do not believe any of it at all. How about that?

Jason Peters: [01:01:45] That's it. And they are not your friend. They are not... They're like, "I, I trust them. They really like me," whatever. No. They... Yes, they may be cordial with you, but they are out there to sell and make money and make money for the [01:02:00] man- they have a job. And then once they sell, a lot of times you won't see them 'cause you get pushed on to post-care, and you won't hear from [01:02:08] them again because [01:02:08] guess what? [01:02:09] They have, They have to sell five more. So when you're saying, "I think I trust my rep," you know, "He's really nice," no, that's, that's, [01:02:17] not them. Take it the next level because how many... There's so many providers that had the nice rep, and they told me after the fact what they bought their laser for, and I [01:02:30] f- you know, I'm like, "Do you know Dr. [01:02:31] Johnson paid $50,000 less who's five miles down the road?" And then they're furious. And I'm like, so... Right. Just do your own due diligence, do your own research, contact the insiders, contact your trusted providers that already have the technology. And when you finally make that decision, you're gonna sleep really good that night

Dr. Kate Dee: [01:02:51] On that note, hey Jason, thank you so much for talking with me today. It's been fantastic talking with you, and I've learned a lot

Jason Peters: [01:02:59] [01:03:00] Same here. This was awesome. Thank you so much, Dr. Dee. Appreciate it

Dr. Kate Dee: [01:03:02] Thanks for listening. If this episode opened your eyes to something you didn't know before, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Subscribe so you don't miss the next one, and drop a comment telling me your biggest takeaway. I actually read them all. Join me on this mission to keep you safe and push this industry to do better. [01:03:20]